- Glenda Frisby I despise abortion BUT will defend a women's right to have one if that is her decision. You Peter need to stay out of women's business and keep your mouth shut. I know many social workers who work in child protection and believe me there are many parents who had no right to have had a child. Why don't you get out into the lower socio economic areas and lend a helping hand. Men like you make me sick
- Jason Bennetts So what about the women that die needlessly if an abortion can save a life? Im pro choice, what a woman does with her body is her own business. But 'im sick and tired of religion dictating what medical science can do for people. Take stem cell research for example George Bush outlawed it on religious grounds.
- David Daniel Ball I didn't ban, but I removed 'Peter from the group to take a breath. The isse is a serious one requiring sober thought. Abbott's position of abortion being safe but rare is a sensible one imho. In moral terms it would be wrong to ban it because it is a life saving procedure in some instances. It is not a lifestyle choice, however, killing a baby or Fetus because it is inconvenient is wrong ..
- Jason Bennetts Glend so are you saying that men have not rights as fathers? If my partner gets pregnant im sure I would have had something to do with it. Glenda please don't take this wrong way but I have interpreted that as you saying that we have no rights. Is this correct?
- Dennis Malcolm Gedye Again I say, a I said way above, I notice none of you in favour of abortion, were aborted yourselves! And yes, I am Peter's Dad! As far as so-called post birth abortion, or definite infanticide, if they can bring it in, that's bringing back the Death Penalty by stealth! We could then execute the violent murderers & rapists etc & call it delayed post birth abortion & it wouldn't then be cruel & unnatural punishment!
- Jason Bennetts Of course. If my partner came to me and said "Jason i'm pregnant" Abortion would be the last thing on my mind. But if she said "I don't want it. I would engage her in a long discussion as to why. If it had to happen to save her life then absolutely it would have to happen no questions asked
- Jason Bennetts I really just didn't like Glenda's comment that we as men have no place in this debate. What about that indian woman that died in Ireland because Religon dictated the hospitals policy on abortion. So if a woman needed it to save her life would you consider that to be what? Defensive homicide?
- Jason Peterson @peter gedye:
So on one hand you are arguing that abortion is murder, but on the other you are making statements such as "'i would happily be paid to pull the switch on electric chairs with murderers and rapists. including all mass murdering doctor and nurses performing abortion"
So, correct me if I am wrong, but you are basically saying that you believe killing is OK, as long it is in line with your moral code? (i.e: killing unborn children is not OK, but killing adults is perfectly fine, as long as you have decided that they are evil)
Thou shalt not kill, hypocrite
- Dennis Malcolm Gedye Jason Peterson, it's not much point talking to my son Peter since the Admin removed him, but the Commandment was actually, correctly, you shall do no murder, which is a little different, seeing as while being told not to murder in the Bible, we are told to execute convicted dangerous criminals, to remove the evil from among us & therefore not let it fester in prisons affecting others! It's a matter of putting away those who have proved themselves unfit for citizenship!
- Jason Bennetts Ok. still too vague so I will put out a specific scenario. Woman is told by her specialist that she knows and trusts with her wellbeing and other medical opinions that concur that her pregnancy lets say 2nd trimester, will kill her if she goes does not terminate. Is she a murderer in your opinion?
- Dennis Malcolm Gedye A lot of mothers have been told that over the years & some have died, some survived & in many cases today they could take the baby early by c-section, but yes & I admit it's a tough decision, but it's still wrong to kill the baby! And I was replying to Glenda when I mentioned atheist!
- Dennis Malcolm Gedye Jason Bennetts, I don't hold it against the mothers! We all make mistakes, we'll probably have to answer for if we don't repent, but like a lot of things, it doesn't make it right! We all can have tough decisions & make wrong choices for all sorts of reasons, but we can repent & do better next time! There are after all, 2 main ways of learning, from other's experience & mistakes, or from our own! Learning from our own can be very painful at times!
- Jennifer McEachran Let's throw a spanner in the works and put this out there...LATE TERM abortions. The aborted baby that is older than those born by a viable premature birth and sometime performed right up until birth. I deliberately use the term ‘baby’ because the child is delivered except for their head, then scissors are used to penetrate the back of the baby's head, insert a sucker and kill the infant prior to the head being delivered. I am sorry about the graphic picture I have just described, however that is the reality of late term abortions. Surely there is no-one in this world who would deny this is a baby being killed? If a woman has carried the child almost to term and then aborts by this method, why not deliver it alive and give childless couples a chance at being parents? What about aborted babies that are 'accidentally' born alive and left to die in a bucket. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that post delivery abortions are being advocated by some. I have read this and am horrified. I believe I read they advocated killing a child up to the age of 2. I think my jaw is still sitting on the floor after reading that one. I have had an experience of seeing and holding a dear little baby aborted 2nd trimester gestation. Fully formed...little lips, gums, fingers, toes and wondered how people believe they are not yet babies. I agree with you Jason Bennetts, men certainly DO have a place in this discussion.
Using deontological principle of ethics, the 'it's my body' argument is invalid because it is not the woman's body we are talking about, it is the body of an unborn foetus/baby. A woman only carries that foetus/baby during the pregnancy. Using deontological ethics, no single person’s autonomy has the right to be more important than another person's. Applied here, a woman’s right to her own body does not outweigh the right of the unborn child. If you haven't studied ethics this may not make sense, but I would encourage people to read up on deontological principles. In my experience, except in medical talk, the use of the word foetus v baby regarding pregnancy and abortion has been this. If a woman has a wanted pregnancy they carry a ‘baby’, if the pregnancy is unwanted, it’s a foetus, despite the ‘product of conception’ being no different. The only difference is whether the pregnancy is wanted.
Except in the devastating case of rape (which very rarely results in pregnancy by the way), women know if they have intercourse a pregnancy can result, because no contraception is 100% guaranteed to prevent pregnancy. This is a time where women do have a choice with what they want to do with their own body. At the heart of this discussion is this....an individual’s worldview and thus this is a very emotive topic. It is a shame discussion cannot be held without it getting personal.
I am ‘prolife’ but do not judge people who make the choice to have an abortion; that is not my right. Women are often not completely informed or aware of what they are actually doing. Any feelings I may have about women who do know exactly what it is they are doing are not for me to comment on or to judge. I do find myself getting angry towards the abortionists who do not provide women with the full facts and lead women to thinking what they are aborting is only tissue, that the foetus will not feel pain, that is will not be born alive (when there are many documented cases of this being false). The documented long term side effects of abortion are often not disclosed either...increased risk of breast cancer, depression, increased risk of infertility and miscarriage in future wanted pregnancies, Damage to the cervix, uterine lining or perforation of the uterus, or ultimately death can result. How devastating for a woman who wants to have a child years after having an abortion to find out she cannot have one because of a complication she was not warned about? This is not informed consent from a medico-legal perspective. That’s my thought on the topic for today.
- Bronwyn Robertson I would definitely agree with that statement - my granddad fought in WW1 - he never, ever went to church - he said to his wife 'love you can take me in feet first' which transpired. He saw no god there. Then the 60's and 70's really saw religion take a dive - accountability was just raising its head and students were not going to be force fed rubbish anymore!
- Jeanie Lockyer Drewry So Glenda, you think that is a woman's prerogative to murder a child in utero? I do not agree with you at all on this issue you selfish cow. What about the right of the child and his/her father? Religion has nothing to do with it, it's about common morals which you severely lack!!! There is no need for a woman to get herself pregnant in this day and age. Heard of contraception have you? Or in your case de-sexing? Nothing gets me more irate that selfish cows who go ahead and get themselves pregnant and murder an innocent life when contraception is FREELY available. I despise the way men are treated on this issue. Women can go ahead and murder an unborn child without any consultation with the father? In regard to the Koran, Muslim women have abortions every day if they don't like the sex of the baby. I'm sorry if I have offended anyone on this issue but my blood boils when I read " a woman's right to choose" Choose contraception if you don't want a child, not murder! Rant over.
- 'Peter Gedye so Tracy your saying the definition in the oxford dictoreriy is not the legal definition ???. i got both definitions from dictionaries. if a person is not fit to bring up a child, u don't shoot the child in the head. you take it off the and put it in foster care. same as if a woman don't want a child the should let it live, but give it up to foster care to be adopted.
- Dennis Malcolm Gedye The point is Bronwyn Robertson, yes people interpret & twist the Bible to their own destruction, ultimately, but even the Bible itself says there is no private interpretation of the scriptures, because they interpret themselves, if you compare ALL the scriptures on a subject & don't just pick the one you agree with! The Koran, on the other hand, contradicts itself, so you can pick whichever part you like & it even tells believers that they are encouraged to lie to infidels, non Muslims, when it seems useful!
- Bronwyn Robertson but, but I didn't give you an example Dennis Malcolm Gedye! Clerics or theologians interpret the bible for the masess and hand down their interpretation. I was not being selective at all. The Koran also have their own clerics who hand down their interpretations to their Islamic masses. The bible doesn't interpret itself - that would put the church out of business.
- 'Peter Gedye Jason your the hypocrite. the bible teaches its Gods law that human should put to death murderers and rapists. yet its mans law that protects murderers and rapists and yet encourages the murder of unborn children so they can perform genetic experiments on the remains, add it to vacations and a wide rang of other sickening things. and yet the murdering women can get there unborn children murdered for FREE by using the dam healthcare card. healthy for who i add ??? the murdered baby ???
- 'Peter Gedye you want to keep abortion ???. how about they change the laws so any woman wishing to murder there unborn child has to pay $5000 up front for each abortion with no government support. and any doctor or person with training found performing illegal abortions is charge $500000 for each offence or sentenced to 20 years in prison with no parole
- Dennis Malcolm Gedye Only 2 of us, so far, would you like more? The problem is that mainstream Christianity doesn't teach what the Bible actually says! But to be intellectually honest, you have to let the Bible interpret itself! I could give you any amount more evidence, but this isn't the place!
- Bronwyn Robertson It is good to see people with a social conscience however, it is the choice of the woman what she does and it is no business of yours. You are dictating to adults about something that is deeply personal and you would drive this procedure underground or over seas, with disastrous results. Abortions have been happening for centuries, like it or not they are here to stay. And don't throw in a quotation from the bible in for good measure when you respond to my comment because I know you will not agree.
- 'Peter Gedye this was the first time i said anything about the bible. all the rest is my clean, sane morals and common sense that most people in this day and age seem to lack. Simple example. ( save the murders and rapists and other filth, but please everyone murder your babies, we your government Will even pay for it to be done and brainwash you into thinking its a wonderful and good innocent thing to do)
- 'Peter Gedye Jason, a woman's child should be the.most important thing in her life and permanently attached.to her heart. it ends up coming down to the point that any real woman would be willing to give up her life if it ment her baby would survive. its called the supreme sacrifice. it happens in wars all the time. one man dies to save his mate from getting shot. man jumps on a grenade to save his buddies. man goes on a suicide mission to save someone's life or to kill some dictator that is about to dads murder a school bus full of children
- 'Peter Gedye Jeanie Lockyer Drewer your fantastic . u took the words right out of my mouth. to be honest i have never been able to stand looking at a woman who has gone in and killed there unborn child. i have had one confront me before to find out why i would talk to them and i told her. then i said " how the hell can you go around happily doing things with your kids, and planning.on having another one next year. yet you murdered your last one because it was the right time in your mind to have another child ??!. her only response. how dare you, its not your business or right to judge me. it was hers and her husbands. they wanted 3 years between kids. the one murdered was going to mess there spacing out i later found. dam discussing
- 'Peter Gedye Bronwyn Robertson do my Dad and i seem like sheep blind following everyone else ??? your thinking of the Catholic Church that tricks its members to never read the bible by themself or the word of God could overload there brain and send them mad. the sheep on this blog are the people defending the murder of the innocent and yet being outraged at morally guided people pointing out how the guilty are protected and put up in rooms with guards that cost more then the cost of staying in a five star hotel every night, and this is how much it costs gore every criminal every night to be in prison.
- David Daniel Ball She isn't here to defend herself, 'Peter, but I have a friend, a good Christian woman, who terminated three before she came to know God. She has had five since, all healthy, but she grieves for the three and regrets tossing aside their lives. She had been very young, and drug using. She is very outspoken now against casual abortions. But you fail to admit that there are some circumstances where an abortion is necessary .. and the woman has the conscience .. you have no right to deny the conscience of another .. because the gift you have been given means you are not the judge.
- 'Peter Gedye so. you tell me ???. who is the Sheep ??, the ones trying to stop the Cold Blooded Murder if unborn children ???. or the one trying to defend the Cold Blooded Murder of these unborn children and screaming in disgust of capital punishment for murders and rapists ???. even though the murder of a unborn child takes longer then capital punishment takes to end a life
- Bronwyn Robertson As I have pointed out 'Peter Gedye it is none of your business what a woman decides to do - which part of this statement don't you understand? I do appreciate your moral stance but at the end of the day it is not your decision to make. It is the woman's decision. I did not call you a sheep - where did that come from? I am glad that you have an opinion, I have one too and it is mind your own business you are poking your nose in where it is not wanted.
- 'Peter Gedye ok simple fact that someone even as dim witted as you can understand Tracy. if you don't want to have babies with someone, then don't have sex with them in the first place. Condoms can fail, and the old saying is that the safest thing you can catch from unprotected sex is pregnancy. Stop being a bike that anyone can ride, find a life long partner or keep your legs closed. if you never want children because you hate them and want yo help supporting there murder then get your tubes cut out or something more drastic, because.i fear for how you would treat children and would never leave my kids in your hands for all the gold in fort Knox.
- Bronwyn Robertson You silly man 'Peter Gedye - now you are taking this to a personal level because you cant win the argument or change my point of view. I have been nothing but fair and reasonable in expressing my opinion, I have not called you names or attacked you personally. So you take it down to the next level and say those sorts of things to me and you call yourself a Christian? I will now rest my case because you sir have shot yourself in the foot!
- Tracy Gordon Wow. So you now have to resort to calling me names and abuse in order to prove your point Peter. You have lost any shred of credibility you had by doing that. I thought my post echoed what you just rudely abused me about. If you don't want to get pregnant then abstinence is the way to go
- Tracy Gordon I don't get the abuse Bronwyn. I told him I respected his point of view and he hurls abuse at me by making personal comments. Great way to win an argument. Like you I have been reasonable and rational in respecting his point of view but he has not given us the same courtesy. Might be time to leave this thread
- Wayne Rickards Some of you readers are making out of date comments that belong in the 1960s and 1970s. Your arguments and spin you fanned just wont cut it. Trust me in 2 year, it still be the same, 10 years it be the same, nothing will change and I do ensure your spin will wont get any results.
- Dennis Malcolm Gedye Like I said earlier, if we executed the hardened dangerous criminals, instead of them costing more than luxury hotel accommodation for life, we'd probably have plenty of money to raise lots of young consumers, Australian citizens, not Islamic asylum seekers, who've paid $10s of $1,000s to criminal people smugglers, to get here on leaky boats!
- Wayne Rickards Dennis me old boy, its 2014, your religious spin wont work these days maybe it did 30-40 years ago, not these days. You're can't thrust your own personal religious spin down non believers. Actually all your kind do is alienate more people away from religion with your fairy tale crap. You cant make abortion illegal base on your religious beliefs. It wont work in a modern Australia. So don't think your religious card going to work here, trust me it wont.
- Wayne Rickards Dennis I am a former born again wanker, so please don't play the usual born again games and think they will work, they wont. I have seem the untold damage a person like you can do to the Christian movement, and because of your kind, it is a weak and dying state these days. So far you have not given a good reason why abortion should be outlaw, were in my case, I have given you facts why it should be kept legal. On your views on hanging criminals, a good point, but hanging would be costly and political.
- Jenni Peters I cannot believe this debate never leans towards what happens when there is NO choice, when people must go to other lengths or when women are forced to do things WITHOUT a choice, which means without A CHOICE for the life or future of their child., I mean it goes on and on and there is too much to say here to win. But to post on Facebook this bullshit about capital punishment for people who have had to choose something so unbelieveably hard. Fuck. How would Peter Gedye even begin to know what any of that is like.
- Susanne Woods Abortion is a very personal choice . No woman no matter who she is takes a decision to have an abortion lightly. Abortion is not always about the inconvenience of an unwanted pregnancy. It can be for medical reasons, rape, etc. It is not our place to judge someone until we walk a mile in their shoes.
- Susanne Woods It is interesting to note that on Peter Gedyes page he has a post from the Sporting Shooters Association and he has a picture which depicts two small children holding up dead ducks with guns and ammunition and now I ask you who is the murderer here ? Now wake up to yourself Peter and go and have a good wank or piss of to another page because you are full of it. The mere fact that you can have that type of picture on your page tells us more about you than it does any poor woman who chooses an abortion.
- 'Peter Gedye Susanne its very personal for the babies when there getting ripped apart, wide awake feeling every shear bit of agony from it . I so hope they pass out before they bleed to death .But then the plosenter would be still pumping.more blood into them and food trying.to keep them alive. I hope every one of you so called women who have murdered your unborn children and support the.murders have nightmares about it for the rest if your lives and its the last thing.that comes flooding to your mind.on your death bed, as well as imagining.the pain they suffered . I shake in horror just think of the agony they suffer, truly unimaginable. But then the Asian youst to rip cheating wife apart getting pulled from for directions. So i.guess they new the agony of it