Saturday, October 20, 2012

When wiki editors abuse

from a belligerent bigot ..
posted on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Djapa84

Pete/Skring

I was recently taken to AN/I for being rude to Pete/Skyring. The outcome was that I am supposed to avoid communicating with him. That means that I really can't comment on what he has been posting at Talk:Alan Jones (radio broadcaster).
You are under no such restrictions. I support all you have said there. Please don't take my silence as any sort of support for the bigot.
What I can't understand is why he is still allowed to spout his ignorant garbage on Wikipedia, but I'm not allowed to say that publicly.
Keep up the good work. HiLo48 (talk) 20:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
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Pete has done nothing wrong, HiLo is an ALP supporter who jealously protects a leftwing bias.
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This is where the issue arose .. on Alan Jones' talk page subsequently archived
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Does anyone else feel that it is humorous that ACMA have ordered Jones to comment on evidence when in recent weeks the Met have reported Global Warming has paused for 16 years despite increasing global emissions of Carbon Dioxide? In terms of the article, it might show that the fad of AGW belief captured wiki editors in a knee jerk response. Maybe we could address that by being more balanced in the presentation? DDB (talk) 04:38, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
What's the Met? What report are you talking about? Reads like push-polling to me. HiLo48 (talk) 06:39, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
The Met is the UK Meteorological society, home of Phil Jones and AGW alarmism. When emails were leaked showing that data was sexed up to appeal to alarmists, Jones was one of the authors. He retains his position atm and vigorously defends his bogy data DDB (talk) 10:53, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
Never heard of Phil Jones. You really need to explain AGW too. Are you English? No Australian regularly (ever?) refers to the Met. Why should they? And why should readers of this thread know? Why are the arguments of conservatives so incoherent? HiLo48 (talk) 20:05, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
AGW is an anachronistic term for climate change, Anthropogenic Global Warming. Interestingly the article on Anthropogenic (man-made) global warming has been taken down and now redirects to Human impact on the environment which really does not discuss the subject and includes some amazing oversimplifications like "The environmental impact of biodiesel is diverse" and "The environmental impact of nuclear power results from the nuclear fuel cycle, operation, and the lingering effects of the Chernobyl disaster".
As for why right wingers are so incoherent, they do not have any logical arguments to raise on issues like this so they cobble together a few catch-phrases to try to make do. If you understand scientific process and logic you do not support climate change denialism, and such understanding is a requirement for coherent discussion of scientific issues. Djapa Owen (talk) 23:31, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
Personally I do not find it at all funny that ACMA's action has coincided with more nonsense from the UK Daily Mail. The article you refer to talks about a report which does not exist and cherry picks the UK Met Office data. It is thoroughly rebutted in the Met Office response here: http://metofficenews.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/met-office-in-the-media-14-october-2012/. The whole idea of Wikipedia is to use reputable peer reviewed references for scientific information, not beat-ups with no scientific credibility. On current affairs and politics of course we have less choice but when it comes to science please look for the data not the shock jock opinion piece. Djapa Owen (talk) 05:50, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
Since when does a personal blog form a rebuttal? No serious scientist has referred to the blog subsequently DDB (talk) 06:31, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
Interesting definition of "personal blog" DDB, it is clearly identified as "Official blog of the Met Office news team. This is the official blog of the Met Office news team, intended to provide journalists and bloggers with the latest weather, climate science and business news and information from the Met Office. The blog will post latest news releases and related content, news diary and information supporting news stories already in the media.", and the links within it actually lead to datasets, not a couple of cherry-picked figures chosen to suit an argument. Since you have been unable to find those links, here they are; transcript of video explanation of the new data set -http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/1/l/Transcript_HadCRUT4.pdf news release about the data set updates in March (didn't take the Daily Mail long to find the two figures to support their nonsense did it? Oh, yes it did.); http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/news/releases/archive/2012/hadcrut-updates and here is the HadCRUT4 website with full datasets and plenty of other information; http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/hadcrut4/
Can you provide one example of an actual scientist who has referred to the Daily Mail article with anything except total scorn? I doubt it. As for referring to "climate-gate" have a read of the article Climatic Research Unit email controversy, it is quite well referenced and gives a balanced discussion of how those accusations were thoroughly investigated and rejected. Accept the facts Ddball, the data is in. Djapa Owen (talk) 12:33, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
Is it that 'the data is in' or that 'it is a left wing/right wing' thing. Your last two posts give both arguments which are diametrically oppositional to each other. Yet even so, they don't address my question or undermine my position .. I am conservative, nether left wing nor right. The newspaper article was balanced, and obtained information from Phil Jones as well as others. The data isn't political. It shows no heating trend in 16 years despite substantial carbon dioxide increases. DDB (talk) 00:56, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
The Daily Mail is an excellent source, for soccer scores. HiLo48 (talk) 01:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
What nonsense DDB, the Daily Mail article is based on comparing one figure from the middle of a strong El Nino and another from the extreme of a double dip La Nina. That is not 'balanced' reporting, it is making stuff up. You cannot take 150 years of data and throw it out the window because two points in a variable dataset don't match the overall trend. If you don't understand that then you are just wasting our time here. Djapa Owen (talk) 01:46, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
So we agree, Djapa, the 300 data points show over 16 years no global warming trend. Your excuse for that is that it lies between two local events with global ramifications which have nothing to do with Carbon Dioxide. You object that it was printed in a newspaper but not on one of your blogs? Or is the demarcation elsewhere? DDB (talk) 06:44, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Your Edit summary said you were going to explain something. Will the explanation start soon? HiLo48 (talk) 07:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Here is the relevant section from the Met Office response: "The linear trend from August 1997 (in the middle of an exceptionally strong El Nino) to August 2012 (coming at the tail end of a double-dip La Nina) is about 0.03°C/decade, amounting to a temperature increase of 0.05°C over that period, but equally we could calculate the linear trend from 1999, during the subsequent La Nina, and show a more substantial warming." Read that carefully DDB and mull it over. Eventually you will have to comprehend their argument, as it is not that difficult really. If you still have trouble there are planty of good references to explain what La Nina and El Nino are, You could start withhttp://reg.bom.gov.au/watl/about-weather-and-climate/australian-climate-influences.shtml?bookmark=enso, but then again that is science. You might not get it. Djapa Owen(talk) 12:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm seeing that as a personal attack and I'm not seeing any relevance to improving this article. If you want to talk about the weather, take it elsewhere, please. --Pete (talk) 17:38, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Always know the right time to chime in, don't you? :) Timeshift (talk) 19:21, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
The whole re-opening of this thread by DDB to discuss climate change, rather than this article about Alan Jones, was inappropriate. I suggest that those keen to discuss climate change take it elsewhere. HiLo48 (talk) 20:49, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
I appropriately posted a relevant question. The abuse I can do without. The question is still salient to the article. The responses have not been. Time will tell, however, as the ACMA decision will be more objectively seen as time passes. DDB (talk) 21:03, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Salient? LOL. HiLo48 (talk) 21:35, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Grey area. Moving on, cc or not? :) Timeshift (talk) 21:55, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
In response to the original query up the top, is Alan Jones known overall as a positive or negative? When he's in the media, does it tend to be a good news story or not? If some WP:RScan be found demonstrating some positive things, then by all means it is likely warranted for inclusion in this article. So with that in mind, find me some positive Jones RS (before you start posting opinion pieces, please actually click and read the RS link). Then again, the original query up the top was submitted 5 years ago, so i'm sure the article looks very different now. I'm thinking for the purposes of a focus on article improvement, that this talk page should be archived (still viewable) and if anyone wishes to re-raise something, they are free to do so. At the moment, this talk page is a bit of a mess. Timeshift (talk) 22:09, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
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HiLo decided to add on my talk page ..
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You have no idea

Just saw your comments about me on Sydney Conservative (via Pete/Skyring's Talk page). ALP Supporter? LOL. As the title suggests, you have no idea. HiLo48 (talk) 21:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
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Meanwhile at Timeshift's talk ..

Tag-teaming?

As per your suggestion, I've raised the matter of the Alan Jones talk page blanking on ANI. Thanks! --Pete (talk) 01:10, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Your work with Ddball and Collect is not tag teaming Pete? Interesting. As for the ANI, it is archiving, not deletion so you have already misrepresented the situation. Good start. Djapa Owen (talk) 01:55, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure why i'm being accused of tag-teaming. If it's in reference to what I said to HiLo, if you read it properly, I said "just let me or someone else know and obviously we'd consider our own view". I'd appreciate a more civil and good faith attitude on my talk page please. Timeshift (talk) 02:53, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

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meanwhile at the ANI page ..

Mass deletion of ongoing discussion

I'd like an admin view on this blanking of the talk page at Alan Jones (radio broadcaster) Some of the threads are current, and as may be seen from the talk page history, the latest entries were about half an hour old when everything was removed! I don't mind old threads being archived - and there were a few with whiskers on - but when people are still discussing issues, we need a bit more explanation. I restored the page and it was blanked again, this time with the odd advice that people could continue their discussion on the archive page.
Rather than edit-war over this, could I get someone with a broom to look at the thing, please? I think a reasonable solution is that anything over (say) a year old can be archived and an ongoing program set up to automatically store threads a suitable time after the last contribution. --Pete (talk) 01:07, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure why we're wasting people's time on AN/I over something that's barely got legs. The solution is to take out comments over a month old, but it's a problem when randoms come along and comment on 5 year old threads... doesn't help. Why are we here? Timeshift (talk) 01:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
While archiving was in order, the more recent threads should be left in given that Alan Jones is in the news again (if for no other reason than to stop people re-raising topics which have been discussed previously). Nick-D (talk) 01:18, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Why are we here? i'd like to hear an admin's perspective... you said, Timeshift.[26] I'd like some informed comments as well. Why remove threads in which you yourself are actively participating? You did it twice, so it wasn't an accident, surely? --Pete (talk) 01:23, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm an involved admin given my prior interactions with both of you, but my suggestion is to un-archive the threads which were started in the last month. This isn't a very complicated issue. Nick-D (talk) 02:17, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Pete, hoping for an admin to comment on the talk page is not an ANI request... and no, it wasn't an accident. It's hoping that the talk page can start fresh again with relevant comments on a high-volume page. It's called archiving, and as the archive tag says, people can continue a discussion if they so wish. It's not complicated. But trying to seperate recent comments from 2007 comments, considering the length and breadth of it, would be hard. If it can be done, great. But failing that, this is the next best. Timeshift (talk) 02:55, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Set an archive bot on the page, specify an appropriate delay, and the problem is solved the next time the bot runs. I'm just wondering why you would add three comments to an ongoing thread and then half an hour later nuke the whole page including several other current threads, as well as the one you posted to. You've been around long enough to know that's not how we do things. --Pete (talk) 03:23, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
That talk page needed archiving - all the historic stuff should stay archived. - Youreallycan 03:35, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
While you've all shifted to furiously debating this on ANI, I restored most of it. While I sympathise with some of the sentiment in Timeshift's explanation, unilaterally removing a whole talk page - much of which was current - is just not done, despite his apparent good intentions. I did however remove any section that had no comment in the last month or so. --Merbabu (talk) 03:37, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
The 2007 thread is a bit attacking calling him a criminal and someone with questionable sexuality ? - the thread - the old stuff from 2007 should be archived - break the thread and keep the current discussion under a new header if you want but please archive, or allow me to archive the attacking 2007 discussion - Yes Done - There appears to be a fair bit of undue discussion remaining/continuing on the talkpage, there is no excuse for Hitler to be mentioned five times and Stalin three times on the living subjects talkpage - whoever it is - please stop. - the talkpages of living people are for more focused discussions relating to possible content additions only and are not for expounding opinions etc. Please see and comply withWikipedia:NOTFORUM - thanks - Youreallycan 03:42, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

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