Monday, December 21, 2015

IPA and Public Service pay discussion

So I can remember the discussion.
A new report from the IPA's James Paterson and PhD candidate Aaron Lane has found Australian Public Service employees enjoy significantly better working conditions and pay than private sector employees.
The report was featured in The Australian ($) today:
The report, Driving a soft bargain, states that superannuation entitlements in the Australian Public Service are a standard 15.4 cent, compared with the 9.5 per cent minimum guarantee, after analysing agreements from Human Services, Immig­­ration, Defence, Health and Customs and Border Protection, among others.
And it highlights “union control” clauses and “taxpayer-funded benefits” for union delegates. “Worryingly, all APS agreements entitle union delegates to paid leave to undertake union training and engage in industrial proceedings,” the report said.
“Management must consult with unions and union representatives on almost every aspect of operations — and union officials and workplace union delegates have mandated positions on consultation committees.”
Public-sector agreements also tend to include performance-management clauses, making it “difficult and time-consuming for management to dismiss underperforming employees”.
“In one department, it takes more than 24 weeks for the mandated time period to elapse — and the decision to terminate can then be internally and externally ­reviewed,’’ the report said.
The institute’s James Paterson said the report provided “a weight of evidence supporting arguments that the public-sector union’s ambit claims in the current (enterprise bargaining) negotiations are unjustified’’.
You and 97 others like this.
Anthony Levchenko At the end of the day, all I really want to do is stick it to the government and it's bureaucrats... I'm self employed and had to build my business from scratch and I have to pay taxes which fund those cushy jobs and on top of that they get 15% superannuation!
Murray O'Brien This is a recipe for disaster. I have thought this for a long time that when young people aspire to positions in the public service because of the generous salaries and benefits, and the rewards of starting your own enterprise or working in one become so unattractive that few wish to take the risk, economic collapse is a distinct possiblity. Public Service wages are artificially high because they are not determined by the market. Businesses and their employees have to roll with the punches of the economy, so should Public Servants.
Amy Robinson 15% super means they are more likely to be privately self-funded retirees rather than on drawing more public funds? Its difficult to make the case against public pay rates when the elephant in the room is someone like Hockey 'Mister End-the-Entitlements' puts a house in his wifes name so he could pay it off with his staying-in- Canberra allowance, then retires midway through his term causing an expensive byelection, so he can can sit on his gold plated socialist un-means tested pension plus get a plum job in Washington from his mates in the fatcat Liberal union.

Its fine to breakdown the socialism in our society but missing the kings of the game just cheeses voters right off.

Re-do the study properly this time without fear or favour.
Luke Zahra Where do you think the 15% super comes from?
Amy Robinson If everyone had 15% then we wouldnt be spending an additional 40 billion/ year on aged pensions. 9.5% doesnt solve the issue it just kicks the tin down the road.
Anthony Levchenko 100% of the money that is used to pay public servants comes from the private sector. I don't think the phrase 'privately self-funded retiree' is an accurate description.

Perhaps if the government didn't tax the living crap out of everybody it would be much easier to save for retirement and/or make suitable investments.
LikeReply718 December at 17:11Edited
Amy Robinson The money goes into a private fund and super was always designed to rise above 9.5 to wholly self fund pensions. The IPA neglected that economic explanation to make it into clickbait. As it stands the 9.5% still results in a bulk of public part/ pensio...See More
Amy Robinson They wont tackle the super issues but unlocking a trillion dollars for small business and startups has to be the key issue here. The IPAs pollies wont dare to touch super especially when their snouts are in the trough. I bet Timbo Wilson is getting his 15% lol.
Annie Lent Stop being a public servant Amy; you are only proving the point
Amy Robinson Stop kissing fatcats bums like Joe Hockey. He makes public servants like you look like 'leaners'. Now have you got any economic points to make my dear bogan? Didnt think so wink emoticon
Cam Kret If private super goes up to 15% people's take home goes down. Not the case with public servants as their wages aren't set in a free market. yet another rort.
David Daniel Ball
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Chow Wong imagine if the public found out what the 15 levels of non-unionised management got in benefits and entitlements
Clarence Paul Of course. In addition to the CPSU they also have the majority of the public behind the push. Unfortunately
Vince Schultz And there are far too many of them..
Phill Davies 1.9 million of them over the three levels.
Anthony Levchenko 1.9 million too many.
David Daniel Ball
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David Pemberton This is a joke. I imagine QLD is the worst state.
David Daniel Ball It is worse than mere pay. Australian public service is not neutral politically. Judges see things if they favour the ALP (re Mabo). Judges turn blind eyes (re ICAC ignoring $billions lost by NSW ALP but targeting Libs over $100s). Tax office, centrelink .. even ombudsman can refuse to provide a service if someone is not Aboriginal .. or not declared Aboriginal.
Amy Robinson Neutrality, Yeah its worst than just racism or rednecks like you when IPA members like Tim Wilson just gets employed by the gov for $400k a year as ' Freedom' Commissioner. No interviews nothing. Forget about him? Funny so did this article when they were criticizing the PS. Some poodles and lapdogs are protected species too.
David Daniel Ball wait, you are saying that the employment of Tim Wilson balances every other public servant and the alleged corruption outlined? I have met him. He is a good person, but I don't feel he is as busy as you allege
Amy Robinson My long answer is Canberra needs a Federal ICAC to clean them all out. Next time ask Timbo if he is against his 15% public service super? Im only saying the obvious what they practice and what they preach are two different things. (Look at the IPA pollies will they give up their gold plated super?) No. So lets just headkick their public underlings cos aussies are gutless like that. Same dumb old colonials.
David Daniel Ball So you give as an example one public servant out of over a hundred thousand, one on a large committee in which he is the only one. He is not a conservative, but a Libertarian, and then you shrug and say it is too hard to justify your position. I'm not racist or a redneck, I'm a conservative. I note you cannot name a single person like me in public service.
Amy Robinson Oh you mean hes a libertarian that is prepared to put aside all his small gov ideals for 400k? And ironically this is the Orwellian 'Freedom' Commissioner who has presided over a staggering - total - media censorship and active whistleblower hunting on your billion dollar gulag on Nauru. Timbo is as quiet as a mouse - real value for his money eh - and no oversight of a billion dollar a year contract. Sounds straight out communist to me. Dont try and play it off as one person - this has massive implications for the anti-democracy movement. Perhaps you, me and Timbo have strangely and vastly different ideas of 'freedom' and democracy?

Both parties horse trade on positions in the PS especially the fatcat and powerful positions you know that. Try some good ol transparency and support a federal ICAC.
LikeReply119 December at 09:26Edited
David Daniel Ball So which is it? Is he paid for with his salary, independent with his actions? You can't have both if he is as corrupt as you allege. Whereas you laud those who are well paid and politically entrenched .. who aren't libertarian or conservative. You either stand on principle or fall for anything.
David Daniel Ball As for a federal ICAC .. how about calling for something effective instead .. NSW model has never been competent.
Jarrod Simner What about the CEO's of private companies, the millions of dollars in salary they get? All the Managment in private enterprise, all the protections they get? Then there's the zero tax they pay.
It seems that the IPA don't want the poor man to even have the right to fair treatment, let alone fair pay.
If a company thinks a worker is worthy of employment, then they are worthy of a fair process to correct any alleged inappropriate performance. We aren't pawns, we're people, with real lives and commitments. We aren't things that can be thrown away when times are tough.
David Daniel Ball Jarrod, there is no evidence of what you suggest. A CEO's salary is subject to tax as is anyone else. A company is only taxed on their profit. don't confuse revenue with profit.
Jarrod Simner My mistake. I was referring to the mega corporations not paying tax on their profit.
UnlikeReply143 mins
David Daniel Ball The papers are quoting revenues and claiming that companies are not paying tax. That is not the issue. The problem is it is service and Australia does not do manufacturing. So we sell raw products and buy finished products. So a company like Apple has operating costs which balance with unit prices, so local they don't make a profit for any sale. But globally they make a profit on any unit sold. They don't let Australia tax them, other nations with lower taxes benefit from that. That makes good business sense. Apple pay their full tax burden, but minimise it in Australia because Australia is so expensive. Australia has very high business compliance costs. Which is another form of tax that business cannot avoid. So were Apple not to operate here at all, Australia would be much worse off.
LikeReply3 mins
David Daniel Ball
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Adrian Lautenbach Typical gronk swill from the born to rule scum. Gonna suck for you when the 99% wake up
Anthony Levchenko Which 99% would that be? And why are they sleeping?
Chris Rumble Wow - that is a very considered reply. What with examples, references and citations and everything!
David Daniel Ball
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Vince Schultz The problem with government employees besides production is that they produce no wealth for the country, although they pay taxes of course they are really not adding to the wealth of the country. So they get almost guaranteed employment, better superannuation and remain an expense. I say outsource everything except management.
Chris Rumble Why wouldn't you outsource management as well?. In fact most "management" in the PS is probably unnecessary.
Amy Robinson Vince did you forget the trillion dollars plus accrued from all us aussie workers including the PS? So the funds produced absolutely no wealth and didnt employed thousands in the financial sector? Their wages bought property that like super just accru...See More
LikeReply118 December at 20:09Edited
David Ludlow The Canberra public service by and large is populated by bludgers the actual work is already carried out by contractors. My son in law has been employed as a IT consultant for 13 years for the Department of Foreign Affairs he says he the waste and largesse are unbelievable.
Anthony Levchenko Amy Robinson still doesn't comprehend what we're talking about.
Jarrod Simner Out sourcing wouldn't make an ounce of difference, apart from being more expensive. If the public service are useless like you say, how would out sourcing make a difference?
The truth is, the public service is there to maintain order. Without them the rich would have a lot more influence over our lives. That would be fine with the rich, but the rest of us would be slaves on a pittance.
Jarrod Simner Would you say that Dr's, Police, teachers, Ambos and all the rest are a drain on society? Or are they merely something that you see potential profit in? Any profit made out of these services would be the real drain on society. Or should we just get rid of them altogether?
Little Gus And then there are all the public servants who do things that many of you don't want to do, such as soldiers.

I don't begrudge them any of their entitlements.
David Daniel Ball
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Jason Duarte I've been saying this for a long time !
Geoff Parker This report is just a pointless public service bashing. I thought the IPA was better than this. The real issue is not the pay and conditions, it is the waste that occurs in the PS, like the outsourcing of PS work to contractors that are paid at much hi...See More
Geoff Kelly The Victorian Public Service Union has included a 5th week of annual leave in its claims. That's going to make some interesting Christmas bar-b-que conversations about why they are more deserving than the rest of us.
David Daniel Ball
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Stej Bosnjak Defence isn't allowed to have a union
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